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This blog has been running for over a year now and I still haven't posted my deconversion story. What the hell is wrong with me? I figure I should remedy this now.I come from a family that I guess you would call Catholic. My father's parents are Baptist, but he's rather apathetic to religion, much more so now since my parents know that my brother and I are both atheists. So the religious aspect of our life was dominated by my mother, who had gone to a Catholic high school. Although she wasn't really dedicated to Catholicism, much more to just the general picture of Christianity, seeing as part of my early childhood we went to a Methodist church rather than the Catholic one we later went to, and then even later we went to one of those non-denominational, "worst concert you've ever been to" churches.
My early church life was probably what's typical for most Christians. You go to Sunday School, learn about Noah's Ark and such, don't really believe it, but don't really think about the fact that you don't believe it. I really just didn't think about religion at all for the first 10 years of my life. I used to read the Sunday comics in church, which is a little odd because to this very day, I've never laughed at a comic in the comics section.
My religious life changed when I was about 11 years old. I remember my mother was in my 9-year old brother's room trying to comfort him because he was crying about something. When my mom came into my room I asked what was wrong, and she said that he was worried about dying. Perhaps most 11-year olds wouldn't be affected, but in my youth I was a huge worrier. I worried about everything, especially about my health. I worried about cancer, leukemia, brain tumors, internal bleeding, brain damage, and even AIDs. From this and other behavior that I had as a youth I think I probably was obsessive-compulsive, although luckily I don't have the symptoms anymore at all (*saves post as draft 8 times for good luck*). Just kidding, but that would have been me before.
Anyway, one of the ways that I stopped from worrying was to research what was bothering me and convincing myself that it was extremely unlikely that I had whatever problem I thought I might have. When I started worrying about death (eventual death, not immediate death due to some cause) my mother tried to comfort me by saying that I would be going to heaven when I died, in essence living forever. This is where my OCD (self-diagnosed, in retrospect) really kicked in for me. Now, in order to stop worrying about death, I felt that I should really explore this idea of heaven and be able to convince myself that I was indeed going, and that this place did actually exist. I wasn't going to simply take it "on faith" because like I said, I was a huge worrier. It had to be overwhelmingly clear that I didn't have a problem. So at this point I decided that I would more actively think about my religion, with the hope that I would soon convince myself of the near certainty of heaven, Jesus, God, etc. It didn't quite work out that way.
I started to pay attention in church, which is probably the worst thing you can do if you want to keep your faith. The preacher would sometimes say something that was either racist, something against science, or some other absolutely ignorant statement. This bothered me, and I attempted to discuss it with my mom on the way home from church. They were legit criticisms, so she couldn't really defend them. She'd usually just say the typical "god works in mysterious ways" or "you just have to have faith" sort of garbage. The more and more I saw this excuse, the more I translated it to be "yes, you're correct, our pastor is psychotic, and that part of the bible doesn't make sense at all". So after only a few months of this increased attention in church, I began to seriously doubt the competence of the preacher, and I was probably also a little angered by some of his statements. This was convenient because it put me, at least in my head, opposed to him. And when you're opposed to someone, you usually put in a lot more critical thinking into trying to debunk what they say. I should say that by this time I probably had moved on from worrying about death and was probably worried about some skin-eating disease or something instead, but now I was focused more on religion.
So being opposed to the preacher, I would listen to him talk and actually think critically about it. And so you can probably imagine how easily I began to doubt the most blatantly stupid of the stories in the bible, like the one of Jesus cursing at a fig tree for example. After enough of these examples, I just decided that organized religion was completely wrong. I didn't really believe anything that the Bible contained, although I held on to the vague idea of Jesus dying for our sins and the existence and nature of God. I probably held this general state of belief for a few years, until the age of about 14. I don't remember what prompted it, but I began to think about these issues again. I thought about the necessity of Jesus coming down to save people. My thinking was as follows
The night I thought this, I said to myself "omg, I'm an atheist". Instantly, the connotation of "devil-worshipper" and feelings of having done something wrong came to mind, because that's what I had learned to associate with the word atheist. I realized that these feelings and associations were completely unjustified, and this made me doubt religion even more for having made me think otherwise.
So that's pretty much the entire story. While my atheist position has surely become more sophisticated with time, reading of books, and reading of all the great blogs in the atheist online community, my actual deconversion was complete.
February 17th, 2010 at 1:56 pm
Re “Who goes to church? Southerners and Mormons:”
1) And who are some of the most criminal scum on the planet — the stench of whose sins offends the nostils of God?
Southerners and Mormons.
2) If you don’t believe me, Consider the Southern Baptist Convention — created to DEFEND Human Slavery.
Or Southern Massive Resistance to Civil Rights a few decades ago.
Or Mormon — and Goldman Sachs CEO — Hank Paulson’s Great Bailout.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Organized religions is just a form of Social Control run by the Wealthy for the benefit of the Wealthy. People like Pat Robertson and John Hagee know WHO is putting Big Money into the collection plate –and in my opinion, they tailor their homilies according.
There ARE real men of Christ in the South — but such do not own big fancy homes, drive Cadillacs with white-side walled tires, dabble in politics, and own their own TV or radio stations. Because such men are humble and give the money they receive to the poor, the sick, and the forgotten.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
If you don’t believe in God, you’ll believe in anything. There’s a reason both the Soviets and Nazis persecuted religious people. They wanted people to worship the Total State instead of their God–liberals have a similar goal. That’s why religious people are allies in the fight against big government. I’m not particularly religious but I want the same thing they do.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
I wouldn’t necessarily equate church-going with religiosity (although I’m sure there is a significant correlation). Church is, to an extent, a social club, in the masonic sort of way. Church is the place where you find a house painter, a car mechanic, a babysitter. And where you find your customers too.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Now, now, as one raised in the Southern Baptist church, I assure you it’s not as monolithic as it seems from the outside . . .
February 17th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
You don’t get out much, do you?
February 17th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
They wanted people to worship the Total State instead of their God–liberals have a similar goal.
Hey, I’m a liberal and I don’t want anyone to worship the state. I know a lot of liberals and none of them want anyone to worship the state either. Nor do I, or anyone I know, worship the state in any way.
There you go, there’s a misconception you can forget all about.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
Yes you do, look at the creep cult of personality that surrounds Obambi.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Church is, to an extent, a social club, in the masonic sort of way. Church is the place where you find a house painter, a car mechanic, a babysitter. And where you find your customers too.
Right, but there’s a reason you find those people in a *church.*
February 17th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
I’m not particularly religious
and
If you don’t believe in God, you’ll believe in anything.
Now I know why Ed is so gullible to the lies of Rush and Zombie-Reagan.
As for abb1:
I wouldn’t necessarily equate church-going with religiosity (although I’m sure there is a significant correlation). Church is, to an extent, a social club, in the masonic sort of way. Church is the place where you find a house painter, a car mechanic, a babysitter. And where you find your customers too.
More confirmation that his entire politics is based on a book of sociology here, a wikipedia entry on anarchism there, and hatred of his mean parents for sending him to Hebrew school
February 17th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
Ed’s actually onto something here. I hate organized religion because I worship the Total State. The total state is actually pretty cool, Ed. You should try worshiping it too. Or are you some kind of godless anarchist?
February 17th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
I never knew Wyoming
February 17th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Who goes to church? Southerners and Mormons.
And Unitarians, though not in the summer.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Every liberal I know is cautiously supportive, to disappointed, to outright furious for the inaction and compromises that have come out of this White House.
There is no “cult of personality”, you can put that one to rest, too.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:11 pm
Or Mormon — and Goldman Sachs CEO — Hank Paulson’s Great Bailout.
Hank Paulson is actually Christian Scientist.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Remember last year when that video showed some Obambi idiot thinking that he was going to pay their mortgage and gas bills?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg98BvqUvCc
Sounds like a cult to me. That video shows what typical BO supporter is like. Also gives you insight into the liberal mindset: wanting something for nothing.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
When did the Midwest become part of the South?
And… “Obambi”? Really?
February 17th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
There is no “cult of personality”, you can put that one to rest, too.
Sure there is. In the fevered imaginations of Ed and his Fuhrer Limbaugh, it is very real indeed.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
My family in Wyoming is mostly hardcore Republican and non church-going. I used to think they were above all the national Republican stuff and were truly of the rugged-individualist stereotype of Western Republicans.
One of my uncles has lately started to speak some of the culture war stuff like “we need to get God back into our government”. I have never seen nor heard of him going to a church except for a wedding or funeral.
When I asked who from our godless family was going to be the first up against the wall for the “God in government firing squad”, he didn’t take it very well. Between giving him crap over that, his newfound penchant for telling racist jokes, and his belief that Target stores are owned by the French and only donate to gay and lesbian charities, he doesn’t talk to me anymore.
His son says I am “condescending” because I call them conspiracy theorists.
I am afraid that that nationalization of a bunch of this nonsense has destroyed any regional variance in Republicans and they are now just generic teabaggers like is happening to my family, even down to saying things like “we need more God back in government” when they don’t even have the God in their personal lives.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
This will surprise no one, but to a first approximation this is the electoral map for the 2008 Presidential election.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
Per Ed: “They wanted people to worship the Total State instead of their God–liberals have a similar goal.”
A body tries to budget universal health insurance with reinstated taxes on the top %1, and suddenly you’re best buddies with Satan. What a crock.
“That’s why religious people are allies in the fight against big government.”
That’s why religious people are used as allies… and given the sort of things “they” are fighting, I’m thinking their Bible study groups don’t often flip to the New Testament.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Boy I’m getting the feeling that talking to Ed (The Conservative One) is a waste of time. Anybody else?
What do you want to hear, my friend? A lot of poor people are very badly educated and obviously don’t grasp the fine points of a mortgage cramdown proposal, or incentives for greater energy efficiency, or what have you.
A political movement with a few ignorant people in it is a far cry better than it’s opponent, which is designed around ignorance itself. Want me to find some youtubes of anti-evolution, anti-science, anti-history types from your team? I guarantee there are a lot more of them, and they’re higher up the command structure than someone off the street.
As far as “getting something for nothing,” I’d remind you that you are posting words on a privately funded website offering its resources and bandwidth to you at no cost. You could pay me directly for educating you, if it would make you feel better.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:21 pm
top %1,
It’s because Ed thinks the top 1% are poor. He is very stupid.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:21 pm
If you don’t believe in God, you’ll believe in anything.
Actually, in my experience, skepticism about God correlates with skepticism about many things.
Nazis persecuted religious people. They wanted people to worship the Total State instead of their God–liberals have a similar goal. That’s why religious people are allies in the fight against big government.
German Social Democrats — liberals — resisted the Nazis and their total state. The Catholic Party allied with Hitler. You’ve got a pretty poor grasp of history, don’t you Ed?
February 17th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
shorter Ed – Negros are lazy
February 17th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
Dreww, ehen did I say ANYTHING about race on this thread?
Why do liberals see race in everything?
February 17th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
Time for Matt to hit the reset button on this comment thread.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
Jeez, Anthony, I think that abb1’s comment was uncharacteristically reasonable.
Indeed there is — it’s the same reason the Islamic Republic of Iran persecutes religious people (such as Baha’is), the same reason Saudi Arabia persecutes religious people (such as Christians), the same reason that Hapsburg Spain persecuted religious people (Jews, Muslims, and Protestants), the same reason the Byzantine Empire persecuted religious people (Monophysites, Nestorians, etc) — and, for that matter, why the Nazis persecuted non-religious people who disagreed with them (like communists). The common thread is intolerance of dissent — whether that means religious dissent against religious orthodoxy, non-religious dissent against non-religious orthodoxy, religious dissent against non-religious orthodoxy, or non-religious dissent against religious orthodoxy.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
Paulie:
Ed’s actually onto something here. I hate organized religion because I worship the Total State. The total state is actually pretty cool, Ed. You should try worshiping it too. Or are you some kind of godless anarchist?
I worship the Total State too. Because I like to be taken care of and coddled. In addition I belong to the cult of ACORN because their mission is to spread chaos by any means necessary, including providing affordable housing to the poor.
What I don’t understand about conservatives is that they’re all into religion and God and most are Christian here, but Jesus was all about giving your hard-earned money to the shiftless poor. Plus he looked like a hippy.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
@21 cmholm: “A body tries to budget universal health insurance with reinstated taxes on the top %1, and suddenly you’re best buddies with Satan.”
“Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s…” was a misquote. What Jesus really meant to say was “build a mountain redoubt. Protect it from the taxman with barbed wire, claymores, and automatic weapons.”
February 17th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
From Matthew 25:41-46:
“41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ”
———-
Hey, Ed –doesn’t that sound like Jesus was talking about the Republicans? Including those right wing , Republican “Prosperity Theology” preachers?
February 17th, 2010 at 2:47 pm
Church-attendance doesn’t inform us of anything; we’d really need to know what kinds of churches are being attended and what’s being preached from the pulpit to learn anything interesting (unless we just want to assume that Christians are inherently evil, or inherently good). I don’t think you’ll find many correlations between church-going Unitarians and pew-hopping Pentecostals, or even between Mainline and Evangelical churchgoers.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Sometimes how much “churchiness” vis-a-vis out of the general population doesn’t matter so much. I was discussing with a Planned Parenthood staffer about why progressives tend to lose out in Nevada politics when the two counties with 80% of the population are blue and we have a rock-bottom church attendance rate.
The answer came down to: organization.
The Eagle Forum and their cohorts have churches to rely on to get out the vote, meet with politicians, write letters, etc.
So even with church participation here is very low, we have a very active minority who have initiated abstinence-only sex ed, ban gay marriage and decide a lot of the major policies here.
Judging by the trends here, one of the aforementioned counties will probably turn Red in November, Ried is in serious trouble, and with that the whole state may turn red again in 2012. Not good.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
Actual photographic evidence of Nazis persecuting religious believers.
Yep, those Nazis sure did suppress religion.
You know, it’s almost as if The Honorable Professor Jonah Goldberg, Ph.D., Fellow of the American Historical Society, and All Around Doughy Pantload, doesn’t actually know very much about fascist history.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:54 pm
Re Ed at 8: “look at the creep cult of personality that surrounds Obambi.”
Obama gets a lot of criticism from the Left.
What I think is CREEPY are all those Republicans who get their political opinions spoon-fed into their brains by Bill, Rush and Glenn — spoon fed by a sex pervert, a drug addict, and an alcoholic who have become Multi-MILLIONAIRES by running the Big Con.
But then the Alternative would be to THINK — to rely on one’s own intelligence. and that is a truly frightening idea for Republicans. Understandably so.
So that is why morons who rant against “Tax and Spend” Democrats said nothing while the last Three Republican Presidents personally signed off on $9 TRILLION in federal debt.
I bet those morons think that Satan ran up the bill.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:56 pm
Hey Kropotkin…
You don’t write about MotoGP and World Superbike racing when you’re not here, do you?
If not… there’s another Kropotkin whose name I’ve seen around the interwebz.
February 17th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
I never noticed any personality cult around Obama.
Although perhaps my view was blocked by my bronze bust of George Bush in his flight suit.
Only $2,995.00! Operators are standing by!
February 17th, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Re Kropotkin at 33: “The Eagle Forum and their cohorts have churches to rely on to get out the vote, meet with politicians, write letters, etc.
So even with church participation here is very low, we have a very active minority who have initiated abstinence-only sex ed, ban gay marriage and decide a lot of the major policies here. ”
———–
Gee, are those the churchs whose supporters get tax deductions for their donations and whose income/property are not taxed? Whose Finances are NOT reported to the Federal Electoral Commission.
Gee, I bet OTHER political organizations would like that deal.
Although I seem to recall George W Bush’s IRS threatening a Midwest church whose preacher had the audacity to argue that murdering 100,000 plus Iraqis was non-Christian.
February 17th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Yeah, what Kropotkin 33 said. Grassroots organization. The left used to have the unions, but they are mostly gone now, and so there’s nothing to organize around.
February 17th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
I’m not particularly religious but I want the same thing they do.
Given this, from above you–the Southern Baptist Convention — created to DEFEND Human Slavery–don’t worry, nobody doubts it, Ed.
February 17th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
These are self-stated percentages, and are known to be vastly exaggerated, probably by about 100% (at least according to one well-known study). My guess is that respondents in the bible Belt are also the biggest liars.
February 17th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Re SomecallmeTim at 40: “Given this, from above you–the Southern Baptist Convention — created to DEFEND Human Slavery–don’t worry, nobody doubts it, Ed.”
————
Yes — I should have been more specific:
“The Southern Baptist Convention –created to DEFEND the PROPERTY RIGHTS of Southern Slaveholders…”
February 17th, 2010 at 3:55 pm
Why do liberals see race in everything?
Why are right-wingers so humorless (in addition to being dumb)?
February 17th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
Hmm. Except Utah, those are pretty much the states with the largest african american populations, as a percentage.
February 17th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
Hmm. Except Utah, those are pretty much the states with the largest african american populations, as a percentage.
What? I think you’d have to say except for Utah, Oklahoma, Kansas, Iowa, and North and South Dakota to make that accurate.
February 17th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
And Kentucky, which I also believe has a below-average percentage African-American population.
February 17th, 2010 at 4:51 pm
Well, the 10 churchiest states, minus Utah, are pretty close to being the 10 most african american states, and the 10 least churchy states are pretty close to being the 10 whitest states.
February 17th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
Ten least-black states, you mean.
Hawaii isn’t a very white state, nor is Massachusetts, but they have relatively-small black populations.
February 17th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
Ten least-black states, you mean.
Yeah, that. But, given the others, that list is pretty close to a list of the 10 whitest too.
February 17th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
ed – That clip, much like the food stamp recipient from the earlier thread, is one arrow in the wing nut veiled racism quiver.
February 17th, 2010 at 5:14 pm
I wouldn’t necessarily equate church-going with religiosity
It’s crude, but it’s probably the single best behavioral measure of religiosity. Other measures include formal membership and/or self-identification as a member of a church or other religious body, belief in religious doctrines, participation in religious rituals and rites of passage like baptism and confirmation, donation of money to religious institutions, formal religious education and training, and personal religious devotional activities such as prayer and meditation.
Liberal religion tends to be self-destructive. Why join a religion that tells you it doesn’t really matter which religion you belong to, or even whether you’re religious at all? But religion in general has long been declining in the United States and elsewhere in the developed world. Good riddance to it.
February 17th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
I live in Western New York, in a post WWII, second ring suburb. Church growth here was about what you expect. A dozen or so Catholic churches, mainly for the Irish, Poles and Italians -you know- Saint this and Saint that, and the usual sprinkling of variously denominated Protestant churches. There is a synagogue(maybe two?), but no mosque.
Nothing very threatening.
Until recently. Someone, I don’t know who, about 7 or 8 years ago, built a church complex -a mega plex- on the edge of town. A compound, really, consisting of 10 or 12 block buildings surrounding a main block building. If I didn’t know it was church, I would have assumed that is was a university research center, or a vast medical/plex of some sort.
You can see the compound from a section of elevated thruway. I drive that stretch of road often, and when I look down, I take note and count how many cars there are. Doesn’t matter what time, or what day, there always 10 or more cars parked in the various parking lots.
Once, driving by at four o’clock in the morning, I counted 14 cars. Lights were blazing in two of the ante-buildings. I couldn’t help but wonder: what are those people up to?
February 17th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
A dozen or so Catholic churches, mainly for the Irish, Poles and Italians -you know- Saint this and Saint that
My favorite is St. Otto, the Patron Saint of Parking.
February 17th, 2010 at 5:33 pm
Churches have an organizational advantage for the same reason that it is easier to organize a group of stamp collectors than it is to organize a group of people who don’t collect stamps.
February 17th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
Arlen @32 FTW.
I go to church regularly purely so that my kids will learn the language of my grandmother and mother as well as their traditions.
There is more to the world than just Protestantism and Catholicism folks.
Any Armenians, Ethiopians, Greeks, Russians, Syrians, Assyrians out there also go to church so the kids will learn Armenian, Amharic, Greek, Russian etc…..???
February 17th, 2010 at 5:51 pm
There is more to the world than just Protestantism and Catholicism folks.
Heresy! Heresy! Burn her! Burn her!
February 17th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
Huck Finn noted a few hogs wandering into a church on a late Thursday afternoon and was properly impressed that they weren’t locked into the Sunday morning ritual. LDS is a cult I believe. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but there’s something very weird about these people, they’re like pod people. A Catholic friend claims their churches are brimming with farmer’s daughters babes. Maybe, that’s the draw. But, I think the place is a breeding ground for serial murderers. Almost as weird is that their founder Joseph Smith is my doppleganger, I look eerily like him.
February 17th, 2010 at 6:23 pm
@Botswana Meat Commission FC Says:
Hey Kropotkin…
You don’t write about MotoGP and World Superbike racing when you’re not here, do you?
If not… there’s another Kropotkin whose name I’ve seen around the interwebz.
Sorry, I am not the same person. My screen name comes from my fondness for classical anarchist theory and one it’s main theorists, Peter Kropotkin.
February 17th, 2010 at 7:05 pm
@flounder
I’ve had a very similar situation happen with some of my extended family down south.
February 17th, 2010 at 7:52 pm
It’s not even Mormons so much: Utah, yes, but Utah’s neighbors, where there ae plenty of Mormorns too, are not in the highest tier of church attendance.
February 17th, 2010 at 8:11 pm
Ed (#8):
Yes you do, look at the creep cult of personality that surrounds Obambi.
To be fair, the same thing could be (actually, should be and is) said about Sarah Palin.
February 17th, 2010 at 11:24 pm
“Church-attendance doesn’t inform us of anything”
Actually, in poll after poll, it’s been rather strongly tied to voting behavior, and is also linked to views on torture, creationism, abortion, etc. Now, the exact nature of this linkage is an interesting question . . . but there it is.
February 18th, 2010 at 12:24 am
Church attendance could be an indicator of community rather than religiosity. Perhaps rugged individualism is weakest in the church going states and strongest in the non-attending states.
February 18th, 2010 at 1:33 am
Why am I the first person to ask what the spread is between “highest range” and “lowest range” is in terms of actual attendance rates?
February 18th, 2010 at 1:33 am
(as in, just what the hell does “frequent” mean?